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  • « The Hidden Treasure (8 -- Giving Away the Gold) | Main | Did Christianity Spread Due of the Promise of Power? »

    Same Sex Romantic Love Not a Sin?

    A man who claims to be a Christian from the UK has written to claim that same sex romantic love is not listed listed as a sin somewhere in the Bible. He claims to have already been converted... Already a Christian, already read the
    Bible cover to cover and can't find a word against same sex romantic love, and, he says "since you can't either, its only logical and fair to put blame on people like you who want a sin to be a sin, even if it aint listed in the Bible. But I don't blame you for it as we Christians do it all the time. We all like to add our own sins, look at the mid 60s when we wanted to condemn black people, we had no Bible text to do it but did it anyway. We condemned women and drowned loads of em in the 1500s with no Bibical evidence, and today we do it to homosexuals with no Biblical texts. Is that a good thing?... I see you want to hold on to a kind of homophobic lifestyle without any Biblical evidence that you can.

    My response:

    Hi _________

    While a clear and unambiguos biblical case can be made against homosexuality, it is also true that many people really do just hate homosexuals and construct their arguments against homosexual practice in order to provide a rationale for their angry feelings against them. And it is, no doubt,true that Christians frequently misuse doctrines that are true in order to achieve improper ends. And I would agree that homosexual practice is not necessarily more heinous than a lot of sins out there which are also called detestible to God .. some of which I have personally committed prior to knowing Christ. But sin is sin, and all sin is rebellion worthy of death. But you and I both are all born into a condition - the bondage to a corruption of nature which manifests itself in many sins here on earth than none of us can escape from naturally unless Christ sets us free. Being born into a condition is not testimony that this is what God desires or intends us to do, but is part of our condition in the fall. Due to our corrupt natures, I have committed this sin, and you are addicted to some other form of idolatry but both of are slaves to our fallen condition and are hopeless apart from Christ. Being natural is not not an argument for, but against something being of God because depravity keeps us from being able to save ourselves and extract ourselves from our willful sinful predicament. Fact is, we don't want to.

    Also, it is important to note that calling a person "homophobic" because they believe something is a sin is not unlike calling someone "polygaphobic", because they believe having multiple wives is wrong. "homophobic: as a term is really nothing more than a postmodern soundbite but not ultimately effective as an argument against true Christianity. While indeed there are people who are genuinely homophobic, and that is quite sad ... but I assure you ____ I am not ...Jesus Christ would not have it -- because it is true that I am no better and He has given me a new heart that loves the lost, including homosexuals and captives of other such behavior. Consider ______, as human beings, we see others in sin and call it a sin because the Bible does, this has nothing to do with hatred. In fact, just the opposite is the case.

    Perhaps this story may help see why the term "homophobic" is innapropriate: true Christians are like people living on an island with many other tribes of people just like them. A disease covers the island from which every person on the island is dying from. One tribe has been blessed to discover the reason. That having eaten a certain delicious root - everyone on the island has contracted the fatal disease, and, at the same time, also found a certain herb or medicine that actually cures the fatal disease. The tribe sends delegates to the other tribes to let them know they can be healed by refraining from eating the delicious root and by taking the new medicine they have recently found. The tribe who found the medicine also must themselves continue taking the medicine all their life, once per week because they are in the same fatal condition as others they are trying to help. There is no hatred there for the others, and there is no looking down on them either because they both are dying from the same disease, except for this medicine that comes from outside themselves. The givers and receiver are both dependent on the medicine to live. They have nothing to boast in and are not morally superior but are merely beggars pointing other beggars to bread, so to speak. It may happen that other tribes may refuse to stop eating the deadly root and refuse the medicine and some may even refuse to believe they have a disease to begin with and be angry at those who only want to bring them health ... so ultimately it is those who refuse to take the medicine are both harming themselves and others. Likewise calling homosexuality a sin is actually the most loving possible way to help people cause we can point them to Christ who can set them free. Christ also set me free from many sinful addictions that I had prior to being a Christian and He can you too.

    Many sins that I personally loved were given the death penalty in the Pentateuch (Deut 18). Homosexuality is also listed among the sins worthy of death in the Law of Moses (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13) . We no longer live under the theocracy of Israel but are now scattered through the world in all countries. But this does not mean that God no longer cares. Death, rather, is merely being put off ... delayed. God is patient and commands all to repent and believe the gospel but there is a time soon coming when He will return and execute judgement for the same sins. The Lord also predicted that there would be people like you who deny the wickeness of homosexuality. In Romans 1 the Spirit through the Apostle Paul says to practicing homosexuals, "Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." In other words _____, you appear to be reading the Bible with your culturally conditioned glasses, reading into it your views. Unless you stop allowing the culture to determine your reality rather than the Bible, you will die. This is no small matter ... for your 5 minutes in your political empowerment and glory you are exchanging your soul. I will earnestly pray the Lord open your eyes to this. The homophobic arguments won't work because they are at root, disingenuous and manipulative soundbites. You are aware of the plain teachings of Scripture on the matter. You claim to have read the entire Bible and not seen this teaching. But the Bible could not be more clear.

    Just as Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews in John 8, I will repeat to you, "But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me ... Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

    It requires spiritual ears to hear the gospel, otherwise men will invent every possible way to escape and suppress the plain words of God in the text of Scripture. It matters not that you show them ... their ears are closed to it. Flee from trusting in yourself and the wisdom of the age. Turn to Jesus Christ. He alone can redeem you.

    My prayers will be with you _______. You may not agree, but there are many people out there like myself who have genuine convictions about this and believe their conviction comes directly from the pages of Scripture, not because of prejudice or some phobia.


    Posted by John on March 31, 2008 05:24 PM


    I really like the analogy in your response. I'll have to use it myself sometime.

    Hi Robert. Thank you for the encouragement. I was thinking about the analogy this morning and thought it might be improved a little if discovery of the poison plant and the cure were brought to the one tribe by outsiders. This way no one could boast in discovery either. No analogy is perfect but this might tighten it a bit.

    Actually, homosexuality is not listed as death in leviticus, remember homosexuality is ONLY one with same sex attractions only, and attractions are not listed in levitical law as wrong. It also has no law for lesbians please note. Are lesbians OK in old law then? Clearly yes. So what did it
    say in hebrew? It only condemned man who lies with mankind as with womenkind in to'evah and to'evah was idolotry. So the real sin here was not love but all male same sex acts in idolotry. Eather way it matters not as levitical law is a dead law for Christians so why list it? This reveals your homophobia.

    Also The definitions most agree on are.....
    HOMOSEXUALITY; Is just one born with same sex attractions. Its not an act
    or a behaviour, just the attraction.
    SAME SEX ACTS; Is the actual term for "homosexual behaviour" or "gay sex"
    because its not just homosexuals who do same sex acts.
    SAME SEX LUST; Is like opposite sex lust, a fast burst of sexual energy, it
    doesn't last long.
    SAME SEX ROMANTIC LOVE: Is the same as opposite sex romantic love, 2 people
    fall in love, date, hold hands, hug n kiss, they may have a blessing
    (marriage) share a home and maybe make love in a committed and monogomus
    relationship for life. Does the Bible therefore condemn this?

    B.B. I believe you are straining gnats and swallowing camels. Where is the authority for such definitions? I simply cannot agree with your definitions of "homosexual" because it comes from the world and the Bible clearly says differently. This is your personal cultural construct. I am going to be very clear here: We sin because we are sinners ... we are not sinners because we sin. Likewise, one homosexual has sex with another homosexual, because they are homosexuals. Plain and simple. (One might commit this act if he were not a homosexual, but it would still be because his nature is corrupt, not by chance) Our nature determines the choices we make, not the other way around. Jesus said that "each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." In other words, a person speaks evil, not by chance, but because his heart is evil by nature. Who he is, in his essense, will determine what comes out of him.

    When Jesus speaks of the Devil to the unbelieving Jews he says, "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

    In other words, Jesus does not merely condemn a person because of the acts they commit. He rather, condemns the acts they commit because it reveals their nature. Apart from Christ, as fallen creatures we sin because our nature is to sin. We are in bondage to it and sin by necessity. We sin because we want to, and we want to BECAUSE we are sinners. Homosexuality was not part of God's original design. It is the result of the fall. Jesus does not merely condemn a same sex love act, but condemns the root from which it came.

    >>>> levitical law is a dead law for Christians so why list it?

    Sheer nonsense. When God returns all practices that are listed as detestible will be punished with death just as they were under the Jewish theocracy. The punishment is not dead, just mercifully delayed.

    I am truly concerned for you because you explain away the clear command of Scripture for your agenda, so you will be in my prayers BB I will say to you what Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews. You are of your father who was a murderer from the beginning. You lie because it is your nature. You actually hate homosexuals because you are a murderer of their souls, and each time you spread this lie and manipulate the Text of Scripture you multiply your sins which will be judged at the last day. This, in fact, makes you the only true homophobe here.

    I honestly do not think further conversation about this will be fruitful. You have already decided to suppress the plain truth of Scripture and don't appear to care. So I see no reason to continue going back and forth in fruitless discussion. We can just agree to disagree here and the Lord will soon judge which position was being honest with the Text of Scripture.

    Solus Christus

    I just want to add a comment in case that John wasn't clear enough. (I don't think that you will object to this John)
    John is a sinner just as much as BB is a sinner and just as much as I am a sinner. We are all in need of forgiveness. Homosexuals are just as sinful as heterosexuals. And thankfully our Lord Jesus died for both!

    Note: I believe that marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman. Just in case there was any question.
    All sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin.

    I myself am guilty of terrible amounts of lust and sin, so I am thankful to say,
    In Christ!

    I like your response because it is convicting yet not condemning. we sin because we are sinners. Thank God for opening our eyes. In respond to same sex love, God made Adam and Eve, not 2 Adams, not 2 Eves. In animal kingdom, the mating is between male and female. That's an order like sunrise, sunset. Sodomite is a word we use also nowadays. Isn't it not derived from Sodom and Gomorrah? Why did God destroy the 2 cities? We always want to believe what we want to believe including interpreting the Bible. We are bias, self-centered creatures after the fall. If we depend on our own understanding and not the Holy Spirit,we fool ourselves and make others stumble too by following us. Satan is the father of lies. 1% truth with 99% lies make it a powerful deception that seems very logical and right in this corrupted world. I will pray for you. In Christ.

    I am very disappointed at your response. You clearly still believe that homosexuality is a choice. As a gay man, I promise you I do not choose to be gay. Who would choose to be constantly fought against and insulted, called gross and looked down upon. If we are all created in God's image, then did God create me gay? It surely seems so. I do not know how else I could have become gay. I pray that you will imagine yourself as being born gay and just for a day knowing what it is like to receive a constant out-flux of hate. The christian church fights harder against homosexuality than most other topics. Did the bible not say take care of the earth? What of the companies, and individuals sinning by polluting the earth, groundwater, sky, etc. Why are there no "God Hates Oil" protesters at Exxon, BP, Chevron, Conoco, etc.??

    Hi flaberglasted

    People who insult, belittle and harm gays are bigots.

    No one here hates you at all. in fact the opposite is true... Know this... It would only be hate if we REFUSED to share the gospel with you. By doing so, we would be discriminating against a specific group of people denying them the opportunity for the privilege of redemption, while sharing with everyone else. You seem to have it all backwards.

    Next, even if homosexuality is something people are born with, and that very well may be the case, makes no difference... we are all "born this way"... in bondage to some form of sin because we brought it on ourselves at the fall. God did not create ANY OF US this way. Our fallen natures guarantee that we a born with a heart in rebellion against God. Being gay may simply be one of them. So with your reasoning, since we are all born this way, none of us are responsible for it. If I am born with traits that cause me to easily be angry does this mean I have no responsibility to do something about it. Of course but if I am born with it I cannot change.... But that is the reason for the gospel. We can't HELP ourselves. Moralizing doesn't help... man is beyond the help of changing himself by being moral. He needs supernatural grace - something only Christ can provide. I have no interest in making you a better person by you simply stopping your homosexual lifestyle. Stop being gay is not the Christian message. If you did stop being gay you would still have a heart which does not love God ... no YOU, like ME need to be changed from without - the Spirit giving use a new heart ... the veil must be lifted form your eyes. I pray God would enable you to see the world as it really is and He would bless you by opening your heart to the gospel.

    The "God hates ___" people are probably not Christians any more than those who are greedy polluters. The fact that you think these people are mainstream Christians reveals how much you have been brainwashed by the media. Go find out how many people attend the so-called churches of people who attend the services which make such ignorant claims about gay people..

    Si i get the whole thing about how God probably never intended to have gay people in his perfect creation at first... But can someone explain to me what makes homosexuality so bad? I can understand murder, lying, adultery, pedophilia, promiscuity, and other sins like that why they are bad. Even non married couples who can have perfectly fine lives I get that they probably usually won't seek God together.

    But what about two christian guys or two christian girls who just love each other, want to devote their life to each others, share physical intimity, grow in their relationship with God all of which in a monogamous, faithful marriage (as any normal christian straight marriage)? OK they can't have children.. But not every straight couple can have or want to have children, and what about elderly people who are assured to not have kids? What is really the difference? What is the evil, the bad consequence that will occur in their life? They are denied love in its most intimate way just because they have the same genitalia! It seems fairly weird.

    Also, how could biblical writters could possibly write good thing about homosexuality if the concept was not even discovered at that time (that some people are exclusively attracted to the same sex, it's their orientation), and if all the examples of gay behavior was linked with idolatry, abuse, violence, gang rape, men sleeping with boys, temple prostitute, etc? In that context, sure, homosexuality is perverted and promiscuous and disgusting and may be comparable to bestiality and other kinds of bad stuff. Love between two person? That's quite a different story.

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