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"...if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). (Council of Orange: Canon 6)

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  • « Speaking Boldly Without Compromise | Main | Cast your cares on the LORD - Psalm 55:22 »

    The Gospel by John MacArthur

    "He [the Father] made him [the Son] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Cor. 5:21).

    Jesus was guilty of nothing. Yet on the cross, the Father treated Him as if He had committed personally every sin ever committed by every individual who would ever believe. Though He was blameless, He faced the full fury of God's wrath, enduring the penalty of sin on behalf of those He came to save. In this way, the sinless Son of God became the perfect substitute for the sinful sons of men. As a result of Christ's sacrifice, the elect become the righteousness of God in Him. In the same way that the Father treated the Son as a sinner, even though the Son was sinless, the Father now treats believers as righteous, even though they were unrighteous. Jesus exchanged His life for sinners in order to fulfill the elective plan of God. And He did it so that, in the end, He might give back to the Father the love gift that the Father gave to Him.

    Posted by John Samson on May 12, 2009 03:43 AM

    Comments

    "Yet on the cross, the Father treated Him as if He had committed personally every sin ever committed by every individual who would ever believe. Though He was blameless, He faced the full fury of God's wrath, enduring the penalty of sin on behalf of those He came to save."

    Don't you think MacArthur is reading a bit too much into "made sin"? Seriously, this is taking liberties with the text, reading into it something that isn't there.

    MacArthur, I am sure, is basing his comments on more than 2 Cor 5:21 as the quote comes from a larger article - 2 Cor 5:21 is simply the one quoted nearest to the comments he made. I could affirm all the other statements he makes from other scriptures..The fact that Jesus came to save His elect people from the wrath of God is easily demonstrated from Holy Scripture.

    God has proven that he is the almighty. Many parents out there will do more for their sons and daughters than for anyone elses children, but GOD did the opposite. He punished his SON in order to make us better. Whate else more do we need from GOD in order to believe that he knows whats best for us.

    Nick,

    what do you think those 2 Cor. 5:21 means?

    I'd suggest whoever runs this page enable the option to "email me of follow up comments" so that people will know when new posts arrive.

    I've seen 2 Cor 5:21 interpreted in various but fair ways, for example:

    1) The phrase "made sin" can mean sin offering, and this is how Early Fathers like Augustine interpreted it. This is based on the fact in Hebrew the word for "sin" and "sin offering" was the same word, even used together in the same context (esp in Leviticus).

    2) The phrase "made sin" can mean "sent in the likeness of sinful flesh" as Rom 8:3 says, which puts the "made sin" on the Incarnation aspect, though not necessarily including the "sin offering" of above.

    3) This is similar to #2, but using a parallel to 2 Cor 5:21. In 2 Cor 8:9 we see a clear parallel, except instead of made sin it is "he who was rich was made poor." Again, the main emphasis is on humbling Hismelf and becoming man to deal with sin.

    All that said, nowhere does this entail imputing our guilt to Christ, and it especially nowhere warrants God dumping His wrath in all it's fury on Jesus.

    Nick, hmmmmm?

    I am not sure I can stand in that flavor of yours.

    I believe Christ is and was and will always be One of Three "Eternal" Beings. He is "always" sinless, Holy, Pure, through and through.

    Heb 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,
    Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
    Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.


    I cannot understand how I can get out of your bag there? How can I be saved then based on what you have laid out above if Christ did not suffer for my wretched soul? He is the sole Savior, not God the Father nor God the Holy Ghost. Neither of Them "became" flesh and dwelt among us. Jesus alone came and died, was buried and rose again and was then seen by many before returning in the Glory of Our Heavenly Father and will return in His Glory soon:

    Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.


    Tell me if I am not getting these Verses of Scripture right then?

    Here is one verse in a multitude of Translations. Doesn't this verse imply imputation then? If I no longer will be imputed my iniquity, then who is imputed my iniquity so that God can establish that covenant of Peace, an everlasting Covenant that He establishes, with me, not me with Him? Cf. Eze. 37:24-28

    (ASV) Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile.

    (BBE) Happy is the man in whom the Lord sees no evil, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.

    (CEV) You bless them by saying, "You told me your sins, without trying to hide them, and now I forgive you."

    (Darby) Blessed is the man unto whom Jehovah reckoneth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile!

    (ESV) Blessed is the man against whom the LORD counts no iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit.

    (Geneva) Blessed is the man, vnto whom the Lorde imputeth not iniquitie, and in whose spirite there is no guile.

    (GNB) Happy is the one whom the LORD does not accuse of doing wrong and who is free from all deceit.

    (KJVR) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    (LITV) Blessed is the man to whom Jehovah does not charge iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    (MKJV) Blessed is the man to whom Jehovah does not charge iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    (NAS77) How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!

    (NASB) How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!

    (RV) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    (Webster) Blessed is the man to whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

    (YLT) O the happiness of a man, To whom Jehovah imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit.

    Hi Mike,

    I'm trying to see what you are getting at. I am not at all denying Christ died for us, I'm simply saying that none of this requires guilt imputed to Christ nor Him facing the Father's Fury. I'm trying to approach the text as objectively as possible, and that's why a red flag goes up in my mind when such things are read into the term "made sin."

    Jesus was a "ransom" (the term and concept is frequently used throughout the NT), and a ransom is a "buy out" price. The value of Jesus' life was the ransom, and living for others and for God, rather than himself, was paying the ransom (Phil 2:5-8). That's why places like Rom 3:24 and Heb 9:15 and such speak of "redemption," which is not at all a term for imputing guilt, transferring punishment, and especially not undergoing God's wrath.


    You are quoting Ps 32 in multiple translations, but the term "impute" here means to take a mental calculation of something. So when God does not impute sin, it means he no longer sees you as a sinner, and this is due to the fact He forgave your sins. This is clearly seen in a plain reading of the Psalm, especially 32:1-5.

    You said:"If I no longer will be imputed my iniquity, then who is imputed my iniquity so that God can establish that covenant of Peace"

    Where does the Bible ever mention that if sin is not imputed to you that it must be imputed to another? It seems like a false dilemma to me. To forgive a debt for example, does not imply you must transfer the debt to another (nor does that fit the definition of 'forgive'). In the case of Ps 32, it's plainly a matter of forgiving David's sins and thus making him no longer a sinner and thus when God makes a mental calculation sees a forgiven man and thus doesn't 'reckon' sin because there in fact is none.

    Nick,

    with all due respect, and you caught me, I am very intrigued with this thread, you wrote:

    "....I'm trying to see what you are getting at...."

    I am trying to "see" what you are getting at?

    You do recognize that Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin as the Bible records He was? You also equally agree that "that birth" was an anomaly, a deviation from the "laws" of nature established and created by God whereby this whole creation exists? When you violate the laws of nature, there are consequences for that. It is a "one of a kind" birth Mary gave to this world fallen and corrupted by the deed of Adam and there is no other birth as His, yes?

    Nick, how do you believe yours and my "guilt" is dealt with? How do you see God dealing with and expiating our guilt? What Scriptures can you cite that mediates our sin and the "inherited" nature of Adam so that we can be considered or rather God can "impute to us His Righteousness" instead of impute to us our iniquity? What offer of Salvation do you see God makes to those called and elected to lay hold of Eternal Life?

    Nick,

    you stated above:

    "....So when God does not impute sin, it means he no longer sees you as a sinner, and this is due to the fact He forgave your sins. This is clearly seen in a plain reading of the Psalm, especially 32:1-5....".

    Nick, we are all sinners. That is a fact. I can tell you my understanding of that fact was greatly enhanced once God "imparted" the Law of Righteousness to me, that is, the Law came alive within me, my spirit, soul and body, and I "died". What is interesting to me is that "experience" happened to me well before I read Paul's infamous writings at Romans 7. When I finally got back to sanity and read those words, Romans 7, a peace came over me even though, in this life, the life I am now living, two opposites exist simultaneously:::>

    Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
    Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

    As Paul goes on in the development of his own spirituality, he makes this distinction about his "flesh", that it is serving the "law" of sin. From his natural birth he was serving the law of sin. At rebirth, that "law" did not cease, even though after the "Law" of Righteousness came alive within him, the Righteous Commandment. I too can understand that in my daily life. I also see that law of sin at work in me, that is in my flesh, all the while I am having deep, rich, Holy fellowship with God and the Holy Christian Church.

    I see that at my "natural" birth, I am four parts, spirit, soul, body and flesh.

    The Greek words for spirit, soul, body and flesh are: pneuma, psuche, soma and sarx.

    When writing to the Thessalonians we see Paul has come into maturity as to these four parts when we see he only says of those four, "only three" will be "sanctified":::>

    1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

    We also see Peter in a similar mindset as Paul when he picks up this mystery as well. Peter writes God, Our Heavenly Father is to be blessed because it is His great mercies that causes those called and elected to be "born" again to a "living" Hope according to the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead to obtain an "inheritance" which is holy and undefiled "kept", reserved and protected from all defilements, in Heaven as we too are "kept" in Him the remainder of our natural life on earth. When I die, the flesh is discarded while my spirit, soul and body are wisked to the Very Holy Present reality of God's Glory, the Only True God and Jesus Christ, the One sent! Of course, until this whole creation, the present created heavens and earth are done away, the Holy Ghost will still be here, the Spirit of God over the waters. After it is done away with and there is a new Heavens and Earth wherein dwells Righteousness, we will be complete in Them, Our Heavenly Father, the Lord Jesus and the Our Blessed God the Holy Ghost, which parenthetically I believe is what Ezekiel was getting at in my reference in the earlier post, Eze. 37: 24-28.

    So, again, I ask you, what are you trying to establish hereon by refuting the intent and meaning of the Holy Ghost making the record of Scripture that Jesus suffered our punishment, the consequences for our sins, not His?

    So again, I am having a very difficult time "reconciling" the "intent" of Scripture with your understanding of the "intent" in Scripture to portray Christ as Paul does there at 2 Cor. 5:21, "made" sin.

    2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    What does that mean to you then?

    Hi Mike,

    I fully agree with you that Christ's birth was fully miraculous. I don't see the relevance of the statement that there are consequences for violating the laws of nature, surely there were no "consequences" (at least not negative) when Jesus miraculously healed someone. Jesus' birth was miraculous on both the natural and supernatural order. The natural order was being conceived without relations, the supernatural order was not being conceived in a state of alienation from God.

    Our guilt is dealt with by being forgiven after repentance, that's Paul's point when he quotes Psalm 32, note verse 5 especially:
    "5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you
    and did not cover up my iniquity.
    I said, "I will confess
    my transgressions to the LORD"
    and you forgave the guilt of my sin."

    Your last two questions are unclear to me. Christ's work for our sin came in the form of ransom/redemption, that's the terms the Scriptures use, and I pointed out that's how Rom 3:24 and Heb 9:15 explain it. The offer of salvation is turn to Christ, have his blood cleans you from all unrighteousness, and avoid grave sins which will cause you to not inherit the kingdom (eg Gal 5:19-21).

    Sorry Mike, I did not see you posted two posts addressing me, I'll go over the second one now.

    I agree we are all sinners, God forbid I would deny or forget that!
    I greatly admire that you consider Romans 7 (ESP verse 6!!) an important passage in your life, I still remember the joy when I first came across that text, especially verse 7:6 (no joke, it's a favorite text of mine).

    The text has nothing to do with imputing guilt however, it's about a spiritual battle we are in, and our only hope is the spiritual life (spiritual resurrection) give by the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    I agree that at birth he was in spiritual bondage, but at spiritual rebirth he plainly says he is not bound by the law, it's dead in relation to him. The whole point of Romans 7 is that once you die the Law is no longer binding on you.

    That is a very interesting look at the "four parts," I had not seen this before. And I see nothing disagree able with most of the rest of what you said. Only the last part is what I think needs to be addressed.

    My intent is not to deny Christ suffered for us (in the Scriptural sense of ransom/redmption), it is only that I believe the notion of imputing guilt to him and especially undergoing the Father's Fury is something not found in any plain Scripture text. My point is that unwarranted liberties are taken with the phrase "made sin," which I see no Scriptural warrant or comparable text to make the conclusions MacArthur made.

    You ask what 2 Cor 5:21 means to me, at about the 5th post I showed three angles which I read 2 Cor 5:21.

    Nick,

    in the post you wrote:

    "I don't see the relevance of the statement that there are consequences for violating the laws of nature, surely there were no "consequences" (at least not negative) when Jesus miraculously healed someone..."

    Do you believe the Scripture here?

    Heb 2:16 For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham.
    Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
    Heb 2:18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

    Particular to it I note this word "suffered":

    πάσχω, πάθω, πένθω
    paschō pathō penthō
    pas'-kho, path'-o, pen'-tho
    Apparently a primary verb (the third form used only in certain tenses for it); to experience a sensation or impression (usually painful): - feel, passion, suffer, vex.

    Isn't this here establishing for me "how" my sins are dealt with?

    And what about these verses too:
    Mat 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.
    Mat 3:14 John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
    Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented.

    And these:

    Joh 19:30 When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

    Why was Jesus sweating "great" drops of blood in the garden? He clearly is the Sinless Lamb. He clearly was in agony and His Soul was in anguish. Why was He subjected to such harm and sorry and grief and suffering then? What was that all about, in your opinion?

    So, what you are saying is John MacArthur goes beyond that meaning when he wrote what he did above that got this dialogue going here?

    I again am having a difficult time reconciling what you are saying with the Faith once delivered to the Saints. The Faith I am referencing is the "Faith" Abraham lived by and received all the promises of God by.

    Isaiah, it seems, points to Christ suffering for our sins here, doesn't he?:::>

    Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
    Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed.
    Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned--every one--to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
    Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

    Nick, again, what you wrote:

    "....I don't see the relevance of the statement that there are consequences for violating the laws of nature, surely there were no "consequences" (at least not negative) when Jesus miraculously healed someone...."

    I pointed out above that Jesus "was" tempted at "all" points like we are.

    In the citation of yours above, again, I am thinking about what happened in Egypt and Aaron's staff:


    Exo 7:11 Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers, and they, the magicians of Egypt, also did the same by their secret arts.
    Exo 7:12 For each man cast down his staff, and they became serpents. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs.

    Jesus could have been tempted to "sin" by doing a miracle other than the miracles He did do and He did not. He only did the Will of God the Father. Jesus did not pray for everyone who needed a healing or perform miracles for everyone who needed a miracle. So the relevance of your words cited above seems to me to be moot, don't they, in light of the fact that Jesus was tempted by Satan to do three miracles against God's will; and both Peter and Paul dealt directly with sorcerers during their ministries, being tempted also by them and they did not go beyond either and go against God's will?

    If these sorcerers and magicians with magic arts existed in Moses' time, Jesus' time, Peter and Paul's time, they certainly are available in our time!

    Consider Peter's offer to Simon the sorcerer in the book of Acts, it implies he could repent and receive forgiveness for his sins. Surely, had Jesus faultered when tempted, Peter could not have offered Simon repentance. It would have been out of the question as would all kinds of sins we commit, too.

    We are dumb sheep and do some fairly stupid sins these days. So again, I just cannot get around what John MacArthur makes plain and as yet you have not convinced me he went beyond what would be the common reasoning and plain meaning of Paul.

    What do you think now? Is there any movement away from your assertion or are you sticking it out in it?

    We might be missing eachother's point on the issue of "natural consequences."

    I'll address what you put and maybe things will work themselves out.

    You said: Isn't this here [Heb 2] establishing for me "how" my sins are dealt with?

    Nick: Yes it is addressing how, Jesus "suffered when tempted" in his office of "merciful and faithful high priest." Verses 14-15 are especially important here and goes along with the ransom/redemption theme (esp v15) that I mentioned earlier. There is nothing in v14-18 that would suggest imputing guilt, and especially nothing about God's wrath being turned on Christ. The High Priest was never an object of wrath.

    I'm not sure your purpose of Mat 3:13-15, that is merely Jesus formally beginning his public ministry at age 30, and John 19 on "it is finished" is formally stating the close of his public ministry (obedience unto death).

    You asked why Jesus was sweating blood and subject to all that pain, the answer is because He was offering up His life as a ransom, and obedience unto (in the face of) death was the price. You are confusing two issues here, "suffering for sins" and "imputing guilt and undergoing God's wrath." They are not synonymous, and only the former is attested to by Scripture.

    So don't confuse my comment about guilt being imputed to Him and undergoing the Father's wrath as a flat out denial of "suffering for our sins," they are not identical.

    You asked if there was any moving away from my assertion, and the answer is no because I've not been given Scriptural warrant for imposing such an interpretation on "made sin." Good exegesis requires a good case for asserting "made sin" means guilt was imputed and suffered God's wrath, good exegesis does not assert an interpretation and shift the burden of proof for those unsatisfied by a mere assertion.

    Nick,

    deal with the guilt then.

    How do come before God without any guilt?

    Show me from Scripture where the "guilt" is dealt with then?

    Guilt is forgiven, that's how it's dealt with. I don't see any difficulty here.

    That's what Psalm 32 is all about:
    " 5 Then I acknowledged my sin to you
    and did not cover up my iniquity.
    I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD "—
    and you FORGAVE THE GUILT of my sin."

    Guilt is cleansed:
    "Heb 10: 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water."

    Nick,

    you are sadly defanging Jesus' death, sadly for you, not for Jesus and me and all who call upon the Name of the Lord!

    You seem to miss the point of the innocent Lamb at passover and the scapegoat carried over to Christ at the Cross and our relief from our guilt and shame and eternal damnation!

    You seem to miss the forensic purpose for His sufferings and grief and death seeing there can only be one reason for it, seeing He is and was and always is Sinless, without guilt or shame!

    Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed by justice, and those in her who repent, by righteousness.
    Isa 1:28 But rebels and sinners shall be broken together, and those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed.


    It really seems to me you venture very close into the area of mockery, mocking the very purpose for Paul writing:

    2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

    I hope that is not too strong a word to you?

    Hi Mike,

    You said: You seem to miss the point of the innocent Lamb at passover and the scapegoat carried over to Christ at the Cross and our relief from our guilt and shame and eternal damnation!

    What I have found through study of the OT in this regard is two interesting points which actually contradict the notion you are imposing on 2 Cor 5:21. The Passover Lamb was never an object of wrath, nor was guilt imputed to it, in fact God's anger never was on the Israelites at this time (see Ex 11:4-7), as for the Scapegoat, it was never killed, which is the last thing we would expect if punishment was being transferred.

    I don't see the major issue of "forensic purpose," considering forgiveness and mercy go well beyond a legal context.

    It's unfair for you to say I'm mocking Paul when I'm not denying clear teachings of Paul such that Christ died for us, in the form of a "ransom." My ONLY objection is you not demonstrating "made sin" means guilt imputed and suffering God's wrath. Asserting that is not enough to prove it, especially if it is going to be made a binding doctrine on others. Even the Westminster Confession states difficult passages much be interpreted in light of clearer ones, and I say "made sin" deserves to be explained in light of clearer Scriptures.

    Nick,

    why did Jesus become a curse for me then? Why did God put my chastisement upon Him then? Why did Paul write 2 Cor. 5:21 then?

    Why did Paul write this then?:::>

    Rom 15:1 We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
    Rom 15:2 Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to build him up.
    Rom 15:3 For Christ did not please himself, but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached you fell on me."
    Rom 15:4 For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

    Nick, Jesus is sinless, without guilt. You and I cannot stand justified before God any other way than the Way of Christ as is revealed in Scripture. He became a curse and He took upon Himself our reproach. If He was not made sin and then suffered that horrible death, by Death himself, for us He could not acquit us and God, Our Heavenly Father, could not establish His Peace with us so that we do suffer death ourselves:

    Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
    Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

    The woman caught in adultery was caught in a capital offense and should have been stoned that day as should the adulterer with her. If Jesus consented to the trap of those who caught her so they stoned her, He would have had no other choice but to gather up many more stones Himself and start stoning every last human alive that day. There is none righteous save One, Him, in a human body. He is the only one who suffered guilt and shame unjustly. If God dealt with me according to my guilt and shame I would not be here today making comments in this combox.

    I believe you have been deceived or you are distorted in your abilities to comprehend logically and reasonably the Gospel and the power of God in it for the salvation of the Elect. Or maybe even worse, you are intentionally distorting the severity of God done to Christ?

    Consider these additional words and ask yourself why they were written and what they mean for sinful souls like me:

    Psa 68:19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily bears us up; God is our salvation. Selah
    Psa 68:20 Our God is a God of salvation, and to GOD, the Lord, belong deliverances from death.

    and

    Psa 68:28 Summon your power, O God, the power, O God, by which you have worked for us.

    Now, here is the expanded version of what Paul was writing at Romans 15. Here in these verses we clearly see the Lord suffering for us, sinners, so that He is Just and Justified in dealing our wrath and retribution upon Satan, the Beast, the False Prophet, Death, Hades, fallen hordes of demons and fallen mankind whose names are not found in the book of Life::::>

    Psa 69:6 Let not those who hope in you be put to shame through me, O Lord GOD of hosts; let not those who seek you be brought to dishonor through me, O God of Israel.
    Psa 69:7 For it is for your sake that I have borne reproach, that dishonor has covered my face.
    Psa 69:8 I have become a stranger to my brothers, an alien to my mother's sons.
    Psa 69:9 For zeal for your house has consumed me, and the reproaches of those who reproach you have fallen on me.
    Psa 69:10 When I wept and humbled my soul with fasting, it became my reproach.
    Psa 69:11 When I made sackcloth my clothing, I became a byword to them.
    Psa 69:12 I am the talk of those who sit in the gate, and the drunkards make songs about me.
    Psa 69:13 But as for me, my prayer is to you, O LORD. At an acceptable time, O God, in the abundance of your steadfast love answer me in your saving faithfulness.
    Psa 69:14 Deliver me from sinking in the mire; let me be delivered from my enemies and from the deep waters.
    Psa 69:15 Let not the flood sweep over me, or the deep swallow me up, or the pit close its mouth over me.
    Psa 69:16 Answer me, O LORD, for your steadfast love is good; according to your abundant mercy, turn to me.
    Psa 69:17 Hide not your face from your servant; for I am in distress; make haste to answer me.
    Psa 69:18 Draw near to my soul, redeem me; ransom me because of my enemies!
    Psa 69:19 You know my reproach, and my shame and my dishonor; my foes are all known to you.
    Psa 69:20 Reproaches have broken my heart, so that I am in despair. I looked for pity, but there was none, and for comforters, but I found none.
    Psa 69:21 They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me sour wine to drink.
    Psa 69:22 Let their own table before them become a snare; and when they are at peace, let it become a trap.
    Psa 69:23 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they cannot see, and make their loins tremble continually.
    Psa 69:24 Pour out your indignation upon them, and let your burning anger overtake them.
    Psa 69:25 May their camp be a desolation; let no one dwell in their tents.
    Psa 69:26 For they persecute him whom you have struck down, and they recount the pain of those you have wounded.


    Grace, as defined is What God Gives us that we don’t deserve.
    Mercy, as defined is What God does not give us that we do deserve.
    Peace is the outcome of both Grace and Mercy from God in our daily lives.

    What about Jesus, what did He get and did not get??

    Jesus did not deserve what He got from God and was given, so hence, He was shown no Grace.
    Jesus did not deserve what He got from God and was not given, so hence, He was shown no Mercy.
    Therefore Jesus was deprived of Peace from God.

    This was very heart felt and interesting. I wanted to leave this comment for Michael. It is the conveyance of something ever so great in being a christian. You said, "Therefore Jesus was deprived of Peace from God." This cannot be true of Christ! How can it be if he is the son of God? He knows all things though he suffered so immensely. All his suffering never took away from him this truth - that he is Gods son all the way through his sufferings and to his death! God forsook him and yet he was still his son. He was guiltless for he had no sin which he committed in any manner or way. He knew his father to the end even as he said, "I commend my spirit to you". When he said, "it is done" he knew his Father and that he would arise. His peace was never defeated as Gods son. Our peace comes from a single truth we hold if our assurance is that we too are of Gods people. Here many martyrs died as did Stephen with a face as an angel. Gladly, for they knew their Father in heaven.
    I cannot follow all these things but do know we must share in his sufferings. Yet in them, he gives us peace as we cry out to him in our sorrows.

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