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"...if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). (Council of Orange: Canon 6)

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  • « Luther and Preaching | Main | Should Christians Support the New Pope? »

    Evangelical Inconsistencies

    You cannot consistently say that man has a free will but cannot lose his salvation.

    On the other hand, those who believe they can lose salvation by some action of their own, are essentially saying that they must maintain their own just standing before God...that Jesus is not sufficient to save. Not far from Roman Catholicism. Trusting in themselves (partly) to get in and trusting in themselves (partly) to stay in. Thus they believe in the NECESSITY of Jesus grace but not the SUFFICIENCY of His grace.

    JWH

    Posted by John on March 21, 2013 09:10 PM

    Comments

    Bob

    Forgiveness of sins and eternal life is not an assumption, but a promise of God (1 John 5:1, 13). Based on God's character, not on anything he sees in me. But you reject God's promise and trust partly in your own good works. No one is saying Catholics trust ONLY in their good works, but since what Jesus did for you was not enough you invent false doctrines like Purgatory so you can work off part of your own sins.. You trust partly in yourself and partly in Jesus for your standing before God.

    Rejecting God's salvation and trusting partly in self is not humble at all but the definition of pride. "...it is because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” (1 Cor 1:30)

    If you really affirmed in the sufficiency of Christ, as you claim, then you would believe he provided everything you need for salvation, including a new heart to believe and persevere to the end. Fact is, the Bible teaches that Jesus is our Savior, not someone who comes to help us save ourselves. Those in the RCC commit the Galatian heresy (Galatians 3:3)"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" So Paul says "Christ will be of no benefit to you" (Gal 5:2b).

    In your doctrine, Jesus is not enough for you for your just standing before God . This is not my opinion but the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. You could not possibly believe in Purgatory if you thought Jesus was SUFFICIENT to save you to the uttermost. You clearly don't no matter how much you protest otherwise. Your doctrine explicitly denies it. Your belief is an abomination to God unless you turn and trust in Christ ALONE for your standing before Him.

    That is an orphaned assertion in search of an argument. Where in the Bible does it say that believing God's promise BECAUSE OF WHAT CHRIST HAS ACCOMPLISHED FOR US is pride. It is a looking away from self to the righteousness of Christ ALONE. It would only be a prideful belief if I somehow thought God thought me worthy for something I did to earn it and so must give me salvation.. But I don't. I justly deserve his displeasure save for Christ and what HE has done for me. It is His mercy alone (Rom 9:16) That is obviously something you reject outright, so you trust PARTLY in yourself, which DOES fit the biblical definition of pride. You think something you do even can come close to being meritorious and justifying. As such, you obviously have no concept of the holiness of God. Nothing we do can earn salvation. It is his grace alone. likewise It is so pervasive and obvious in the bible that your theology fits the Galatian heresy (Gal 3:3) that you, with a stiff-neck, prefer a the man-made self-worshiping doctrine of Rome over Scripture. Having begun by the Spirit are you trying to complete it by the flesh?

    You can declare all day long how Salvation in Christ alone is prideful but you cannot back it up with the text. Only your imagination. Sad thing is you already know this, but you kick against the goads. I have done extensive study of what RCC believes. This is not from a third party. Modern Catholics reject Augustine's doctrine of salvation and prefer your semi-pelagianism. It is a fact. You do not believe in Christ alone.

    "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13

    Given your definition of pride, I guess John was teaching us to be prideful. But in reality it was the opposite. Because of what JESUS DID we can know eternal life. That is the essence of the gospel. My works count for nothing. They are rubbish as Paul says.

    The true circumcision are those who worship in the Spirit, glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh. Philippians 3:3

    Bob

    I have yet to see you even use Scripture to defend yourself... only unaided human arguments so where are the questions you thought I did not answer?

    "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW that you have eternal life." - 1 John 5:13

    So I did explain to you HOW someone can know. I quoted Scripture where the Apostle answers your question directly. But you ignored it. Scripture is obviously insufficient for you. Jesus says he will "lose none" (John 6:37, 39) of those who come to him AND You KNOW WHAT?, I BELIEVE HIM. You don't apparently. I pray the Holy Spirit open your eyes to the gospel of Christ and stop boasting in your own righteousness as part of your standing before God. You have no leg to stand upon. We both believe in the doctrine of the Trinity and when I say Christ alone am not discounting the whole work of the Trinity in salvation. I think you know that ALREADY and so are wasting my time with needless rhetoric. I was contrasting salvation by Christ alone which the Bible does teach (Philippians 3:3; Gal 3:3) with cooperative self-salvation which you and your so-called church teaches.

    Your questioning Of Christ's finished work goes contrary to Scripture.

    Yes indeed. ONLY GOD GIVES GROWTH!!!!

    "he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth."

    READ IT CAREFULLY INDEED. Neither the Pope nor any man is to be followed. ONLY GOD who has revealed himself in Christ.

    Next, "For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

    NO OTHER FOUNDATION SIR. THIS PASSAGE ITSELF TEACHES CHRIST ALONE... yet you are blind to it. "So let no one boast in men," Paul says.

    You ought to take your own medicine. I have boasted in no one to you save Jesus alone. You HAVE boasted in men and their doctrine. So only the blind cannot see the meaning of this passage. I pray the Spirit open your blind eyes and deaf ears and turn your heart of stone to a heart of flesh. (Ezek 36:26)

    It offends man's pride that they cannot save themselves... and this is obviously why you are so angry at Christ. It undermines you to know that you are spiritually bankrupt and can be saved only by Christ and His merits alone. That you openly deny Christ alone in writing is damning ... but it is not too late, Christ will have mercy to all who look to Him alone as Savior. Repent of trusting in your own righteousness and look to Christ alone and you can know the forgiveness of sins.

    Bob,

    You are conflating the work done by us in serving our neighbor with the finished propitiatory work of Christ to save His people from their sins.

    The finished work of Christ is a perfect work laid in the Elect's heart as the foundation for our work in the world and the Church.

    The works Paul focuses on in those verses in 1 Cor. 3:14-15 are not in any way complimentary to the finished work of Christ. The honest admission on your part to these ex-biblical works, praying the Rosary and belief in after death sufferings (purgatory) show your lack of the same kind of Faith both John H. and John and I have received, a faith that is as sufficient for our salvation alone as the Grace we have received and the scriptures we hold to as sufficient for us to guide our work in the world which is all God says is necessary to bring Him glory. He does not require anything more.

    Nowhere in the Scriptures does the Scriptures teach praying the Rosary is necessary or sufficient. I'd ask you to provide us with Scriptures, chapter and verse, to show us where we are to pray with rosary beads or that the Scriptures are not sufficient but only to assist us in getting into purgatory after we die so we can suffer some more before we are released from there and released into our final home in Heaven itself where Jesus is right now reigning until He destroys all His enemies?

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